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Floating Tank Design - For something a little bit different!

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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby Kachau » Wed 22 Dec, 2010 11:29 am

No recommendations. Just get something quiet...I'm in trouble at the moment. Our new one is reeeeally loud. Might have to look at some external plumbing solution to keep the missus happy.
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby callummc1 » Wed 22 Dec, 2010 12:55 pm

Kachau wrote:No recommendations. Just get something quiet...I'm in trouble at the moment. Our new one is reeeeally loud. Might have to look at some external plumbing solution to keep the missus happy.


Yeah - quiet would have to be high on my list as well. The missus won't let me keep my tank if it's noisy.
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby Kachau » Wed 22 Dec, 2010 1:46 pm

It came on today and my wife said she had to change rooms because she couldn't hear the phone :(

External plumbing solution for me involves knocking out a brick :( But if it's outside, it'll need a shroud as well....OR, I can put it on the deck, but that would potentially mean I have to reverse my sump as there'd be 7 or 8 metres of piping...not going to happen seeing I just redid the plumbing :(
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby mattgreen » Wed 22 Dec, 2010 2:51 pm

what chiller do you have? mines not that loud
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby JacksonLee » Wed 22 Dec, 2010 4:04 pm

easy solution is to just move the phone! :roflmao:
My el cheapo hailea chiller is nice and quiet, theres a definate hum if you listen for it though.
Everyones definition of quiet is different though, to me my set up is quiet but someone else may think its too loud
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby callummc1 » Wed 22 Dec, 2010 4:57 pm

JacksonLee wrote:easy solution is to just move the phone! :roflmao:


Wouldn't work with my missus ;)
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby Kachau » Wed 22 Dec, 2010 10:52 pm

I got the Hailea 1000A - 1HP. It's waaay more than a hum doh! I could live with a hum. I bumped the temp setting up a degree (up to 28 instead of 27) so hopefully it doesn't go off as much.
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby mattgreen » Wed 22 Dec, 2010 10:54 pm

28!
my tank barley gos above 26 (chiller kicks in at 26.9)
do your corals mind in the 28's?
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby Kachau » Wed 22 Dec, 2010 11:01 pm

Corals seem fine at 28. The tank was getting up to 31 degrees before the chiller arrived eek!!! They didn't like 31 though...you could definitely see that some were looking a little haggard at 31. Fortunately, that was only for a week.

It's only been hooked up for 2 days, so it'll be interesting to see where the ideal operating temperature is...worst case scenario, I'm going to knock out a brick. But if that's the case, I'm going to plumb an external pipe so I can refill my tank without having to use buckets :D
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby Kachau » Wed 22 Dec, 2010 11:49 pm

The temperature settled at 26.7. Missus is much happier :D
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby Steve Campbell » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 9:03 am

callummc1 wrote:Speaking of pumps and flow, this will be a 100 litre tank - what should I be looking for in terms of cycling? I've seen a great deal of difference with some tanks being completely cycled 10 - 30 times an hour and others that are cycled far less or far more frequently.

Any thoughts?


Ideally you need to separate the flow concept into two aspects, flow in the display tank and flow through the sump. Ideal flow through the sump is generally considered as 3-5 times the tanks volume in liters per hour. Flow in the display tank is considerably higher at ~30+ times the DT volume per hour.

As an idea, at 100 liters and given you may loose up to 50% flow from a return pump due to head pressure a pump that is rated at ~1000L/h should do. For flow at 30Xs a pump rated at 3,000L/h should do. To minimise the look a closed loop would be your best bet and to minimise sound a submersible pump in the water (sump) would be the quietest.

callummc1 wrote:
JacksonLee wrote:what kinds of corals are you looking to keep? That will ultimately decide on how much flow you will need.


Well, a bit of everything really. However it's going to be a very minimalist style tank. A couple of piles of rock with a mixture of hard and sofft corals and 4-6 small fish.

Bear in mind that it's only 38x12x12, so there is not a huge amount of stock that can go in it.


Unless you can provide enough flow and light hard corals will be off your list. But with a bit of compromise I think you can achieve the look and provide the right environment.

As the edge design gets bigger so too does the chance of failure. You will be in the dog house for weeks if the base glass explodes and water goes every where! :o

The parameters that would be of greatest concern to me are flow, lighting, gas exchange, temperature and structural integrity.

I really don’t understand why you want to stick such a low stand when the tank is only a foot high. If you increased the three foot, or even better, 1000mm your options for equipment choice would increase dramatically.

When you consider the sump design don't forget to leave some space for support equipment that you may want. Electrical, auto topup, dosing equipment, chemical filtration etc.

I am not an engineer but the structural integrity and gas exchange are too elements for concern for me in this design. I would minimise the overhang of the base and maximise the hood dimensions to suit. This would still allow for the look but will limit structural integrity problems and at the same time will allow for more space in the hood for lighting options and gas exchange.

Don’t underestimate the problems associated with gas exchange. Totally enclosing the top is not a good idea.
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby fishguy23 » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 9:12 am

here is a edge inspired nano journal, he doesn't have the enclosed top though
viewtopic.php?f=144&t=218594
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby Steve Campbell » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 11:57 am

Is the tank stand still going to be 20" high? Remove as a minimum 2" top and bottom for structural support and thats only 16" you have to play with. Thats about 35cm, I really don't think you can work with this.
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby mattgreen » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 12:46 pm

closed top? how will it get oxygen exchange?
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby PaulG » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 1:15 pm

callummc1 wrote:
JacksonLee wrote:easy solution is to just move the phone! :roflmao:


Wouldn't work with my missus ;)


Remove the missus??? :poke: :poke:
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby JacksonLee » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 1:22 pm

:roflmao:
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby callummc1 » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 2:18 pm

Steve Campbell wrote:Ideally you need to separate the flow concept into two aspects, flow in the display tank and flow through the sump. Ideal flow through the sump is generally considered as 3-5 times the tanks volume in liters per hour. Flow in the display tank is considerably higher at ~30+ times the DT volume per hour.

As an idea, at 100 liters and given you may loose up to 50% flow from a return pump due to head pressure a pump that is rated at ~1000L/h should do. For flow at 30Xs a pump rated at 3,000L/h should do. To minimise the look a closed loop would be your best bet and to minimise sound a submersible pump in the water (sump) would be the quietest.


That's great info, so using a display tank volume of 235 litres (no rock ect taken into account there) and an overflow like the one I have described I should be looking for a return pump from the sump that is around 2500 - 3000 L/H in order to achieve a sump flow of around 5x the display tank volume (I'm assuming that most pumps can be dialled back using a control valve).

I'm a little bit confused as to the difference you are referring to between flow in the DT and Sump. Are you saying that these should be a seperate mechanisim for generating additional flow in the DT (above and beyond the sump)? Is this the type of thing that might be addressed with a powerhead or are you suggesting a seperate closed loop system with a seperate pump that just sucks water from one location and pushes it out another?

Steve Campbell wrote:Unless you can provide enough flow and light hard corals will be off your list. But with a bit of compromise I think you can achieve the look and provide the right environment.


Assuming that I get the sump flow right as mentioned above, what would you recommend for keeping some hard corals. I should point out that I would expect that there are only a few and positioned in such a way as to make the most of the light (probably directly under the hood for example). Lighting thoughts at this stage are a custom CREE LED setup with some additional directional LED's to fit in the hood.

Steve Campbell wrote:As the edge design gets bigger so too does the chance of failure. You will be in the dog house for weeks if the base glass explodes and water goes every where! :o


Lots and lots of testing (outside) before it comes inside. I'm considering 10mm glass (or thicker if required) for the 5ft design tank.

Steve Campbell wrote:The parameters that would be of greatest concern to me are flow, lighting, gas exchange, temperature and structural integrity.


I hear you - every decision I make will be documented and debated here first. I'm very interested in hearing further thoughts you might have on any of these.

Flow - I'm quite enjoying drawing on your experience for this aspect.

Lighting - I'm considering CREE LED's + some directional LED's to achieve the right lighting. I'm aware that the limited hood space may provide some limitations. I'd like to consider some non-photosynthetic corals such as sun corals for the areas that do not have sufficient light. (Aquascaping will focus heavily on the light availability and appropriate positioning rock / corals according to their needs).

Gas Exchange - I'm aware of the limitations of the open hood and I think that I'm really experimenting somewhat on this one. Attempting to create as much turbulance on the surface water in the sump as possible. Hoping that this will address most of it. Will carefully space and watch livestock additions for signs of trouble.

Steve Campbell wrote:I really don’t understand why you want to stick such a low stand when the tank is only a foot high. If you increased the three foot, or even better, 1000mm your options for equipment choice would increase dramatically.


Agreed - I'm moving furniture around in the living room next week and we are going to do a cardboard "mockup" of the tank. I'll post pictures here and I'll be using it as an opportunity to work on the missus regarding the overall height :)

Steve Campbell wrote:When you consider the sump design don't forget to leave some space for support equipment that you may want. Electrical, auto topup, dosing equipment, chemical filtration etc.


Agreed. I'll be submitting an updated stand / sump design shortly. I will incorporate a slightly smaller sump with a section at the end for electrical equipment and top up.

Steve Campbell wrote:I am not an engineer but the structural integrity and gas exchange are too elements for concern for me in this design. I would minimise the overhang of the base and maximise the hood dimensions to suit. This would still allow for the look but will limit structural integrity problems and at the same time will allow for more space in the hood for lighting options and gas exchange.


I'm going to see if I can track down some friends who are engineers and get some recommendations on this. If anyone knows an engineer / forum frequenter who might be inclined to help me with calculations, I'd be happy to hear from them.

Steve Campbell wrote:Don’t underestimate the problems associated with gas exchange. Totally enclosing the top is not a good idea.


I think this is one constraint that I'm going to have to work within. I think my approach here is going to be be what I outlined above. I know that several people have sucessfully kept clowns and some basic corals in the Edge for long periods of time quite sucessfully. I'm going to start with their success and combine it with very gradual stock additions over time & rigorous monitoring. (I'll ensure that I have resources for alterante livestock housing should anything seem to start turnning sour).

Thanks for the carefully considered advise Steve. It's very welcome.
Last edited by callummc1 on Thu 23 Dec, 2010 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby callummc1 » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 2:20 pm

Steve Campbell wrote:Is the tank stand still going to be 20" high? Remove as a minimum 2" top and bottom for structural support and thats only 16" you have to play with. Thats about 35cm, I really don't think you can work with this.


On the 5ft long design, i expect that I can get 24" height in the stand. Will be working on the missus over the next week or two so see what other height I may be able to squeeze in.
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby fishguy23 » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 2:29 pm

why does the overall height need to be so low? will it be sitting on a table or something?
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby callummc1 » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 2:32 pm

fishguy23 wrote:why does the overall height need to be so low? will it be sitting on a table or something?


Are you talking height of the tank or height of the stand?
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby callummc1 » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 2:32 pm

PaulG wrote:
Remove the missus??? :poke: :poke:


Hmmmm - temping :nut:
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby fishguy23 » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 2:37 pm

callummc1 wrote:
fishguy23 wrote:why does the overall height need to be so low? will it be sitting on a table or something?


Are you talking height of the tank or height of the stand?


tank and stand... if your stand is less then 2 foot the entire height minus the hood is only going to be about 3 and a half feet, which isnt very high at all, especially not a good viewing height unless your sitting down constantly
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby mattgreen » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 3:02 pm

how exactly are you going to monitor the gas exchange?
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby callummc1 » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 3:09 pm

fishguy23 wrote:tank and stand... if your stand is less then 2 foot the entire height minus the hood is only going to be about 3 and a half feet, which isnt very high at all, especially not a good viewing height unless your sitting down constantly


Stand will be 2ft.
Pedestal base for the tank will be 2.5 inches.
Tank will be 16 inches high.
Hood is likely to be 5 inches high.

Total Height : 47.5 inches (3.95ft)

And yes - we will be sitting down most of the time - it's in the living room and will be directly opposite the couches. We also want to be able to look down into the tank from above (which is the point of the glass cealing in the tank).
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby callummc1 » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 3:34 pm

mattgreen wrote:how exactly are you going to monitor the gas exchange?


Essentially by adding stock very slowing and watching for any signs of respitory distress. I think it's fairly common knowledge that fish experincing a lack of oxygen or stressing from high carbon dioxide show their distress through rapid "breathing" (often supplemented by rising to the top of the tank and appearing to "gasp" at atmospheric oxygen).

These symptoms will be addressed by immediate partial water change in the tank and the removal of the affected fish to standby facilities with forced airation.

I'm also considering adding direct, forced airation in the sump as a mitigation strategy.

I'm also trying to find other ways that i might be able to monitor oxygen levels in the water. Water at a temprature of 25 - 28 degrees will usually have between 7 - 8mg of O2 (at 100% saturation - mean sea level).

It's about all I can think of presently.
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby JacksonLee » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 3:49 pm

i think you will be ok as far as gas exchange goes as long as theres decent air ventilation in the stand and hood. You'll have plenty of exchange from the sump/overflow/skimmer. There's plenty of fluval edges out there succesfully keeping corals and fish with far less area for gas exchange due to no sump or skimmer and just a hang on filter.
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby callummc1 » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 4:46 pm

JacksonLee wrote:i think you will be ok as far as gas exchange goes as long as theres decent air ventilation in the stand and hood. You'll have plenty of exchange from the sump/overflow/skimmer. There's plenty of fluval edges out there succesfully keeping corals and fish with far less area for gas exchange due to no sump or skimmer and just a hang on filter.


I think there are a number of reasons to think that I will be ok. Previous success with these endeavours show that it can be done.

I'm going to be taking a very cautious approach and trying to maximise my success at every stage.

My current edge (tropical) is definately overstocked and the fish have been fine for several months. I perform 25% water changes weekly. It's just running the stock HOB filter.

Between a sump with forced airation, skimmer and the open area under the hood, I think I have a reasonable chance.

Thanks for the words of encouragement.
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby mattgreen » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 5:19 pm

few questions.
with the small hood how will you get enough spread of the light.

how will you move things around in the tank it would be abit of a task wouldnt it'
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby callummc1 » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 6:36 pm

mattgreen wrote:few questions.
with the small hood how will you get enough spread of the light.


Again, it's an experiment in many ways, but the tank is going to be very minimalist in terms of aquascaping (reef in the sky is a good example of the type of scape I'm envisioning) and the hood will cover around 50% of the tank. The hood will be full of LEDs, including some directional ones with wide lenses. Where possible I'll try to use non-photosynthetic corals such as sun corals in areas where there is not a lot of direct light.

That being said, I've posted a few shots of my Fluval and the light spread that I'm getting in that, it's pretty damn good in my opinion :)

mattgreen wrote:how will you move things around in the tank it would be abit of a task wouldnt it'


Hell yes! It's a design constraint :wall:
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Re: Floating Tank Design - Thoughts and critique invited.

Postby mattgreen » Thu 23 Dec, 2010 6:38 pm

haha that sucks

leds could work get a rather good spready if positioned corectly. so has this got the go ahead? whens building start
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